Eurodressage and Wayne Channon received an overwhelming amount of responses to Wayne's column on introducing half points to the judging system to achieve more accuracy in judging.
The editor selected a few replies, which are kept anonymous here, to share with the readers.
Would you like to contribute a comment? Please mail your pondering to waynesworld@eurodressage.com.
Reaction 1
Liked your thoughts on the judging system. Could be interesting to try something like that. Why not test it out at a show where there are two sets of judges? Aachen, for instance, always has 5 sitting in the boxes and 5 more waiting to judge the next test. I think there is also a surplus at Frankfurt in December. The resting 5 could step in for the first five tests of the Grand Prix just to test it out.
Reaction 2: What to believe in, when riding Dressage?
Deep knowledge of dressage is not necessary to see that the judging at this year's European Championship for Junior and Young riders was a disaster.
The differences of the results between judges was much too big to keep your respect for the judging system, which we must have. Small differences in the scores are allowed but the judges should not disagree too much in the placing of the rider. Please go through the scoring list yourselves and see it with your own eyes.
Differences in understanding dressage has been an issue for many years. The problem is basically that new ways of riding and training have developed over the past 40 years, which has been allowed and, therefore, the understanding of dressage has been very fluky.
Allowing this uncertain understanding over the years makes it difficult to get back on right track! If dressage is to have a future in the world as an Olympic discipline and with powerful television possibilities, the FEI must do something radical about the judging and that is not only issuing a book about it. Seminars are held, but are the national federations sending the right judges or is it just the “oldest” or the next one in the queue?
The popularity of dressage is increasing. Hundred thousands of dollars, in some cases millions, are spend in purchasing talented ponies and horses. Professional training, professional vets, professionally developed feed, everything is getting more looked at in a professional manner. This deserves respect.
The Judges
The riders must be able to ask for competent judging. The judges selected for Championships have had several years of national judging -- having been trained over years and selected as an international judge -- and after several years of international experience and proven ability, they can be allowed judging at Championships. The history (competences) of a judge for a Championship should not be questioned if any of the above is true.
How come these huge differences in the judging then?
Being open and without any restrictions you can think of:
1) Lack of competences, despite their experience
2) Political judging (including incapacity)
3) Sleeping while judging
Let’s start from the bottom.
1) The judges are not sleeping! But lack of concentration has often been seen - some judges does not see several of the movements of some riders.
2) Do they judge politically? – absolutely Yes, - everyone can see that, and the most horrible thing is that everyone knows it and does nothing about it!
3) Lack of competences, - if the above educational assumptions are right, this should not be a problem. However, the assumptions seems not correct, otherwise it is only a political problem!?
FEI ?
The questions is – what will the FEI do about this huge problem?
There must be respect for the judges, and one must be able to rely on the scores. Please understand that only the judges can guide the riders in the right direction for good dressage. Good dressage comes from the classic way of education of the horse, - no other place!
The FEI must show strong character and really take hand about the training of judges, not only the international judges. They also need to have a strong connection with the national education of the judges. Strong national programs must be established, with a lot of tests checking that the judges really can judge and be a differentiator in guiding good dressage. Being a judge must be something which is an honuor, not a place where lack of own riding talent lands!
The FEI must show that it will get rid of the political judging by suspending judges who, (everyone can see it without knowledge of dressage) cannot handle this. Probably this will give a lack of judges, but this will only be for short period, why the new ones will know that suspension will follow if they cannot stick to what they are there for – judge dressage! Today everything takes place.
Please FEI! Help yourselves; help the beautiful sport of dressage by taking much more responsibility. The riders, the sponsors cannot be treated this way, understanding the enormous amounts spend in this subjective sport. They deserve respect as well, and it is not respectful what was seen during this European JR YR Championship.
The riders have to believe in something, and send their prayers to FEI doing something which increases the right sportsmanship of dressage and finding the right winners.
Reaction 3:
I read your recent comments about dressage scoring and totally agree. I have found the scoring at the Grand Prix level somewhat of a mystery. In the last two World Cups (VEGAS) the panel seemed to be waiting to give out the scores. It was very apparent that the judges were waiting for the bottom of the order (the top of the World standings) before rewarding good work. Having said that (has anyone else said that too!!), I agree with your notion of decimals ....it is already done in the freestyles and in Young Horse divisions. It would seem a natural extension for the judges to be able to do this at any level.
BUT, now the FEI will add another twist to the scoring procedure! At the WEGs and for the upcoming Games in Hong Kong, we will only see a running total of the averaged score as the test progresses. They say it will be less confusing!! I do not agree....I think the crowd -- both educated and uneducated -- appreciates seeing the individual marks - whether the judges do or not!! - and can get a better feel for what is good, bad, or super. I also think going back to the good marks, instead of the percentages, is so much easier to understand and follow.
Reaction 4
I absolutely agree with you on the need for Half Marks in Dressage judging. I am a first level of judging. After several years of practical experience, I'm finding that I feel more and more restricted to that "6" score. Especially at small local schooling shows (where I judge) there are very few horses that warrant a 5 or 7 on gaits, but a huge range fall into the "6" category. And of course, as you said, we start with that score and go from there. In that huge "6" range of horses, I often find myself thinking, "that is a fairly fat six - but still not an honest seven" or vice versa. I am in the lowest ranks of the judging system, but I still take my task very seriously and try on every single ride to be fair and true to the education I've received. It bothers me that I'm forced to give a simple "6" when I'm thinking "its barely a six, but a "5" is too harsh; or it's almost a "7" but then what would I do to distinguish it from the solid "7"? I am also a competitor (on an average or little bit above average horse); so I feel the injustice from that side of the fence also.
Reaction 5
Found you column very interesting. Like i am sure most dressage riders have at some stage i have put a little thought into our judging system and thought i wouls act on your invitation to add share my view on the subject
I agree that half points are required, but i don't think this goes to the heart of the problem, the real issue is that th current system asks to much of our judges. It expects them to be able to see and evaluate accurately numerous different factors with just a brief glance and a few seconds deliberation.
Think about all the aspects that a judge must evaluate to give a single score; rhythm, relaxation, straightness, impulsion, collection, contact, the riders position, the quality of the horses gaits, the accuracy of the movement, if its a freestyle then add the music and the artistic impression(and i am sure you could think of a few more). This list could go on and on, and we expect a judge to see and assess all these aspects, give a score and then do it again a matter of seconds later. Because a judge is asked to consider so much they have no choice but to focus on some aspects and neglect others. Leading to results that unfairly favour horses with certain qualities over other equally as important ones.
Take ice skating as a comparison, a judge is only asked to judge one aspect of the performance (ie one judge simple scores the artistic impression, another will mark only the jumps, another the spins and so on). (This system was implememted in response to the corruption scandal at the Salt lake olympics and seems to have cured the problem).
I think that we need to have judges score one aspect of the performance each like they do in ice skating, in other words a single judge to score the horses rhythm and qualiy of gaits in each movement, another who solely marks the riders position in each movement, another to mark the impulsion of the horse in each movement etc. The biggest problem is what different aspects we focus on (perhaps we have 7 judges, one to judge each aspect of the training scale and one for rider position??).
I believe that this would create a final score that places proper weighting on each aspects of a horses training, and would ensure hosrse such as the Salinero's or Weltall's are still rewarded for there extravagant gaits and impulsion but are also properly punished for a lack of relaxation or regularity while the Wansuea Suerte's and Brentina's are properly rewarded for there submissiveness and properly punished for a lack of expression, thus creatuing a level playing field for different types of horses and training systems.
Also by being able to adjust the weighting that each aspect recieves (ie increasing the importance of relaxation or submissiveness by giving that judges score a coefficient) the FEI can control the type of training systems that are rewarded giving them an effective way to regulate issues of animal welfare without necesarily having the gestapo monitor the warm up arena.
Obviously my little system has some issues, it would cause problems for small local shows (particulalrly in developing dressage nations such as New Zealand where i live) where the number of judges are limited.
As for the low marks we recieve in Dressage, what is so wrong with that? you can see it two ways, maybe we are not as good as we think we are, or maybe our sport is incredibly difficult (the second option makes me feel good about my short comings so i am going with that option).
Reaction 6
When you compare dressage horses to gymnasts I think you make one small mistake. Each gymnast is a specialist. If Person A is the floor specialist, they can earn a 10. If they are the pommel horse specialist, they can earn a 10. Dressage horses are more like the ‘all around’ gymnast. They may have one specialty for a 10 – perhaps the piaffe, perhaps the extended trot, perhaps the extended walk. But in the history of international competition has an all around gymnast scored a 10 on all of the equipment? I don’t think so. I have never seen a horse/rider than can get a 10 in all of the movements, have you? So, perhaps the FEI Dressage Committee and the judging panels are not so ‘off base’ if no one gets 100%.
Reaction 7
At last we have somebody with intelligence and gumption to deal with anomalies of dressage judging. For years there has been much talk about correcting and making dressage judging more consistent and transparent but little has been done practically. Maybe you can raise some issues in your column. To start with, the issue of the collective marks- are they really needed? I feel that they only distort the true results of the dressage test as they only benefit the high profile combinations and penalise the less spectacular horses ridden by less know riders. We often see tests being won simply because the collective marks are high, while the actual performances in the test received similar marks and only because the high profile rider received an 8 or 9 for their riding it can give an advantage of 1%. Does it make a difference if the horse has got the WOW paces if he does not perform a dressage test. The use of the collective marks in order to divide two riders with equal total marks is mathematically illogical as obviously the one with the lower collective mark will have achieved more marks for the actual test. I believe the collective marks draws the insecure judges to manipulate the. Who would dare give Anky a lower mark for her riding or for her horses submission when everyone can see that there was no halt and the horse was panting as if it had run the Grand National. I am sure that removal of the collective marks will make the results more transparent and understood and less manipulated. I hope that you share my feelings about it and maybe we can start the ball rolling.
Reaction 8
I will be very interested to see what comes of this article. Since the victorious write the history books, the ones on top have no reason to complain, and the ones not victorious (wont say losers) have all the reason to complain, but don’t have the standing to do so. Being from a non dressage nations, one always feels that the expectations from the judges are low, or non existent. When the expectations are low, the bar is hung low, and surprise and wonder, and also doubt is probably the feeling when something good is presented. I feel that there must be a competitive feeling for the judges, that causes a fear of not “getting it right”, just as the riders hope to do well, but also fear making mistakes.
Then the question comes: how can a judge make a mistake that is noticed, and makes for consequences? Getting a rider that is expected to do well high or low on the lists, or one that is expected to do poorly high or low on the list, while the other judges give the expected scores- leaving said judge out on a raft without a paddle having to explain him or herself for the whole cocktail party elite? The judges always have a choice of two marks, and what one is thinking, with regards to the risk of “getting it wrong” will decide which mark you give. Judges are only human, and I understand their perspective. It is no fun being at the party and having Isabell and Anky talking to the other judges and having their backs turned to you! All of this is mostly subconscious I think, but still relevant.
One would have to be arrogant not to let others opinion of your competence affect your decisions. If such judges exist, they should be set to judge the judges, as was done in the Idols competition. The regular judges were obviously bothered, and stumbled in the beginning before getting on the ball again. Don’t think many judges would go for this however, and we would have to look for robots to do the judging. May be anonymous judging would be the answer? A judge sitting in his or her living room judging via video link, and not being affected by the outcome? No, not a good idea, since a confirmation system would have to be put in place guaranteeing that someone would snitch on the judge who was “out of line”
No, my feeling is that there is no way to fix it, and that the criteria of a sport can never be met in dressage, so we better just keep enjoying the training, and appreciate all the ones with guts enough to come and tell you you did well- a pity the judges missed it!
There were so many more great responses to Wayne's article but we just made a brief selection
Would you like to contribute a comment? Please mail your pondering to waynesworld@eurodressage.com.
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